This episode is a conversation with Maggie Marriott about the importance of trust for working in complex situations.
Maggie is thoughtful and wise - with huge experience of making change in gnarly technology environments.
In this episode Maggie talks about her consulting practice based on the ideas of Gestalt Therapy and how she helps groups of people to grow trust and ultimately make change in complex situations.
Though the Gestalt ideas were developed over 80 years ago you'll hear from the conversation that they align closely with modern-day complexity thinking.
Episode notes
Selected quotes
"The environment we're in changes who we are and what we bring." - 6:55
"Gestalt for me is about ... it's about the whole and about the parts." - 8:30
"How do we build enough trust within the team that we can start to tell each other the truth?" - 13:55
"I really do have a blow-up elephant [in the room]" - 14:10
"Perceived Weirdness Index ... it's okay to be weird. Just not too weird." - 18:10
“Experiment in the moment” - 22:10
"To [make] change in complex systems... it's a craft." - 23:15
"Is there a way to write outcomes differently?" - "As questions. I prefer them as questions." - 28:25
“Without trust, nothing's going to change.” - 29:25
References
- Maggie Marriott
- Relational Change
- Gestalt Therapy
- Perceived Weirdness Index - Hanafin
- Phenomenology - Merleau-Ponty
- Field Theory - Kurt Lewin
- Relational Organisational Gestalt: An Emergent Approach to Organisational Development - Marie-Anne Chidiac
Maggie Marriott - Bio
Maggie Marriot is an independent coach, supervisor, organisational consultant and an associate with Relational Change.
She's done loads of work on big organisational change programmes in the UK Government and in the private sector.
She's interested in bringing Gestalt practice to organisational issues such as:
- lack of connection to the natural world in decision-making and
- understanding sexual attraction at work.
She cares passionately that organisations remember they are part of a wider ecology and that they move from ego to eco-leadership.
maggiemarriott.com / @maggiermarriott
Transcript
Mark: Hello, I'm Mark Foden, and welcome to the Clock and the Cat: a podcast of conversations about complexity, the Clock and the Cat explores the emerging science of complexity, ultimately to help you generate better ideas and make better decisions, whatever you're involved with. This is episode six and I'm with Maggie Marriott.
Before I talk with Maggie, I'd like to thank just a few people. First, the seeming legion of people across Canada who have been visiting the website, listening to the podcast, and generally being nice on social media. I think this may be down to Tom Kinney in Ontario. So Tom, thank you very much. You are a splendid fellow. I should also say that my wife is Canadian and she sends her love out to you all.
There is a special place in heaven for Will Goode who wrote the first comment and rating of the Clock and the Cat on iTunes. He describes me as the Parkinson of complexity and I'm blushing even now. That is presuming he means Sir Michael Parkinson, the British broadcaster not Cecil Parkinson, the politician or even one of the hapless victims of Parkinson's law. Will, your rating was magnificent and motivating. I read it every morning before breakfast. Thank you.
Very special thanks to Adrian Brown, Danny Buerkli and Elena Bagnera at the CPI, the Centre for Public Impact. They've been hugely supportive of the podcast, published transcripts on their own blog and have enthusiastically banged the social media drum. They've brought all sorts of lovely people to the podcast, not least Natalia Aguillo from Barcelona who wrote me a lovely email this week. Thank you, Natalia. CPI absolutely get the importance of complexity despite the unpalatability of some of its consequences for many of the folk they aim to help. Five gold stars for them. Visit their website. Wear their t-shirts.
Right. Let's get on with it. If this is your first experience of the Clock and the Cat and you don't know what it's about, please do go back and listen to episode one for a breathless, electrifying seven minute intro to the podcast.
Welcome back if you went away. Here I am with Maggie Marriott. Maggie and I first met more than a dozen years ago working on a government program. Maggie's an independent coach, supervisor, organisational consultant, and she's an associate with Relational Change. She's done loads of work on big organisational change programs in the government and in the private sector and she's interested in bringing Gestalt practice to organisational issues such as lack of connection to the natural world in decision making and understanding sexual attraction at work. She cares passionately that organisations remember they're part of a wider ecology and that they should move from ego to eco leadership. How about that? Maggie, welcome.
Maggie: Hi, Mark. It's great to be here.
Mark: Maggie and I were in touch on Twitter probably a month ago and I instantly felt I've got to get Maggie on the podcast and I woke up this morning feeling excited but absolutely no way of explaining why. So I sat down and wrote some notes this morning and I think I've got to a coherent explanation why it's good for Maggie to be on this podcast. Making progress in complex situations is crucially dependent on collaboration. It's not about delivering a plan. To use a cliché, it's a journey and unexpected things happen and new realities emerge. And this can make huge differences. We need companions, we need networks, and we need to be able to adapt together. And this rests on our relationships. We must be able to communicate authentically. We must be able to grow trust, trust in people, and actually in ourselves. And all of this is Maggie's bag and it's why I felt excited and it's why I'm really glad she's here. But Maggie, before we do any of that, the first thing that we need to sort out is are you or have you at anytime in the past been a complex system?
Maggie: I think I am a living, breathing complex person.
Mark: So, I have to explain that that's how Maggie and I got in touch on Twitter because you were writing a bio, weren't you Maggie?
Maggie: I was, yeah.
Mark: And you were finding it a bit of a struggle and I had this sort of trite response that it's hard because we're all complex systems, which is kind of true I suppose. Anyway. Maggie, welcome. It's great to have you here. I think we're going to call this podcast the about trust, we will title it about trust, but let's see. Let's see what happens. The first word that stuck out on Maggie's website and the things she talks about is the word emergent. When you use the word emergence, what do you mean?
Maggie: To me, the word emergence, I guess it's like you're saying in your intro, in terms of the journey, which is an overused word, and also works. Emergence is the idea of constant change. It links back to as soon as you've made a change, you've changed the entire conditions about where you're going to go to. So what you had planned to go to is maybe not when you want to go to now. So it's that constant, what's happening now, what's the right thing to do now? Okay, I've that stuck. I've made that change. Where am I now? What's happening now? What's the right thing to do now? So for me, that's the emergence. What's figural now where I am today?
Mark: That emergence. But it's destabilising I guess, isn't it?
Maggie: It's there on the edge of chaos. It's not tipping utterly into chaos. It's that creative edge is absolutely what we're looking for.
Mark: So you're saying it's important to be there, not something to be avoided?
Maggie: It's the best place to be. Absolutely. Change only happens on that chaotic edge.
Mark: A ragged edge.
Maggie: Yes. Otherwise, we are either way too comfortable or it's utter, utter chaos and we don't know which way to go.
Mark: Because there's racing drivers talk about this, don't they? They're on the ragged edge or what? Because I suppose to go as fast as you can, you need to be absolutely on the limit. And that works for racing cars as it does for changing ourselves, changing the world.
Maggie: And that happens in nature, too, in terms of field boundaries, that's where nature goes to the edges.
Mark: So, when you say field boundaries, are you talking about hedges or edges? Proper field with wheat in it, that kind of stuff?
Maggie: To me, it's the same.
Mark: Oh really, that's interesting. Say more.
Maggie: So lots of wildlife goes to the edges and those are field boundaries and that can be a physical wheat field, which has a boundary in it that lets change happen. And it's the same in Kurt Lewin's field theory in terms of where are the edges, where are the boundaries, who are we in this context? A bird behaves differently out in the open field as it does at a field edge or in its nest and we are just the same and field theory is the same: the environment we're in changes who we are and what we bring.
Mark: Maggie, you're an enthusiast for Kurt Lewin. Can you just say a little bit about what Kurt's about?
Maggie: I could explain quite a lot of things but in a Gestalt context very much we talk, use his, field theory and it actually just link through to the modern day complexity theories in terms of each of our behaviours is not just about who we are as a person but also where we are, the environment we're in. So, as a person it's me psychologically, socially, historically, I'm physically where I am and all of that is the field. So when I turn up at work in an organisation, I can't box myself off. Everything I do and how I act, the wider field is with me.
Mark: Can I call this field a system? Is it the same?
Maggie: So, the field may include many systems. My concept of this, and it is just mine, is that the field may contain many systems. So, my field includes my work, my family, all of the other systems that I'm part of.
Mark: I just want to try and tie this back to people who've got this sort of complexity frame in their heads, so we can think of Kurt Lewin's field theory as our theory of systems. And you kind of said that, haven't you in that there are connections there. Can you say a bit about what you think gestalt is?
Maggie: Gestalt for me is about ... it's about the whole and about the parts. I guess you could say in terms of system, take it back to system and complexity theory. So a single system, an organisation, mirrors the whole of society in the world. It's the reflection of that.
Mark: You mean like it's a fractal. Like, it's got multiple levels of similarity. Is that what you-
Maggie: Yes.
Mark: That's extremely comforting for the complexity people like me.
Maggie: Absolutely.
Mark: Can we go back to the words you were using? So you were talking about the parts and the whole.
Maggie: Yes. A part, a system, represents the whole, so an organisation represents society, the world, as part of it. But when you put the whole together, so the whole town, the whole city, the whole country, the whole world. That's different than looking at the individual parts. So, they don't equal each other. They reflect each other, but they are not the same. There's some parts are part of the whole, but neither reflects the whole. Does that make much sense at all?
5 minutes
Mark: No, it absolutely does because complexity theory says the same thing is that a single bird cannot murmur. In episode one I was talking about murmuration of birds, so one bird on its own cannot murmur The effect of the swoopy behaviour is all about the interaction of the parts and it does not belong to any one of the parts. It's in the same way that a single neuron cannot think; it has to connect with its mates in order for thinking to be going on. So, there's a lot of parallel there.
Maggie: Yeah, it's all relational, so that neuron you're talking about I guess is that's the same as us as people, so we meet in relation. So if I'm coming to an organisation an organisational change consultant, I immediately change the field and what is noticed because I'm there.
Mark: Ah, so that's important, isn't it? Because it's quite easy for consultants to think, oh well we've got this system here which needs changing. And to think of it as you being separate from it and that you, to the behest of managers who are paying you, go in there and have a bit of a tinker, do a bit of rewiring and then clear off. But it's not like that, is it?
Maggie: No. As soon as we're there, the system has changed and we become part of it to a greater or lesser extent. And we impact it and it impacts us. Just our very arriving there and asking the questions we do, things are already changing.
Mark: And so is that what Gestalt is? So, you've got it on your letterhead. So when you're gestalting-
Maggie: When I'm gestalting, yeah.
Mark: When you're gestalting. What are you actually doing?
10 minutes
Maggie: It’s very similar to complexity theory. So it's looking at out at, okay, what's happening within the organisation and what is the organisation a wider part of? So, that's very much the field theory side of it. And then I use often for them dialogue, generative dialogue. So, this is all William Isaacs' working, and I guess Otto Scharmer's Theory U, which is built on that in terms of how do we have those conversations about what's the reality now? How is the culture? Really, what's the reality? Rather than how we wish it was, really how is it and to get that ground of what's true today. And I also use the word Phenomenology, which is from Merleau-Ponty. So what am I feeling in this organisation? Can I breathe? Am I holding myself in? So using myself as an indicator. A very simple model is an SOS model, which is what's the situation? So, what's happening in the field? What's happening with the people in the organisation? What's the other? And what's happening with me? What's the self? So, it's the SOS is the model.
Mark: So, what was the first one?
Maggie: What's the situation.
Mark: Situation.
Maggie: What's happening with the other? So that's in relation and then the self and what's happening with me, and all of that together gives me my work.
Mark: This isn't Maggie Marriott going into an organisational situation and sort of analysing all this and writing it all down and producing a report, is it? It's you interacting with people? How does that go on? What do you do? I mean, it's talking to people, isn't it? Tell us how you do that.
Maggie: Sounds trite, doesn't it? But curious. So, just really curious for how things work. How is it for you? What's getting in the way? Absolutely nonjudgmental. So I don't care what's happening, we just need to uncover the truth. Where are we now? What is really happening, what are the real behaviours? And that's a mixture of one on one conversations. And then also coming in and talking to a team. Often we need to do, going back to the trust that this started with, so how do we build enough trust within the team that we can start to tell each other the truth?
Mark: So there's the nub, isn't there? When a great big elephant in the cliché, then you've got to find a way of talking about the elephant. Nobody wants to talk about the elephant.
Maggie: I usually take a blow up one with me so I can blow it up and put it in the room.
Mark: You really do have a blow up elephant?
Maggie: I really do have a blow up elephant, and often I'll get people to write down what's the elephant in the room on a sticky note and stick it on the elephant so then it's the elephant and they don't have to say out loud themselves. It's owned by the elephant in the room.
Mark: Maggie, I know what the introductory quote for this on Twitter is. I can see it now. Can you send us a picture of your elephant?
Maggie: Absolutely.
Mark: Oh, God. I'm so excited. We can stop now. Fantastic.
15 minutes
Maggie: Again, taking it back to the Gestalt that takes it away from, I don't have to talk about it. This is me and I can now point at it and it's that the elephant in the middle of the circle? And I guess that's the other thing I do. We talk in circles. We don't have tables in the way.
Mark: Oh, that's so comforting to hear.
Maggie: Scary, but it-
Mark: Tell me what happens when you blow up the elephant. How do people react?
Maggie: Well, I've introduced it different ways. Sometimes I just have it on the edge, sort of wait for people say, "What's that doing there," and then other times I will put it in the middle and normally people laugh and also there's a sense of relief, but there is a way of getting the elephant out in the room. I've also had a place where there wasn't enough trust in the team and it didn't work at all. They just weren't ready. They was still a denying there was any elephant in the room.
Mark: Oh, that's interesting. So presumably you can talk about the elephant without actually talking about what the elephant is, which maybe is a sort of a pathway to solving the problem.
Maggie: Yes. It gets it out there in a lighter, this isn't about me, this is about the elephants. You can point at the other in a way, back to the self. I can protect myself because this is no longer about me. It's about the elephant over there and it's a physical manifestation.
Mark: A typical assignment. What happens? How long? How many conversations, over what kind of period? This is probably a piece of string question.
Maggie: It is a piece of string. The gestalt approach is to be iterative. So I will contract for units of work, but it can be between, oh I don't know, so I do some work for Gloucestershire county council and they are half day meetings and other pieces of work have been two years. So, it depends on the scale of the change required, the money required.
Maggie: So it is how long is a piece of string. But to me, if we can break it down into units of work, then we can at least get some satisfaction. We achieve that unit. We've learned something, even if we haven't achieved the ultimate goal, we've got more understanding, more awareness.
Mark: So that's your agile sprint, then?
Maggie: Yes. Which is the gestalt cycle of change. Yeah.
Mark: Everything is the same.
Maggie: It is. Everything is the same; correct.
Mark: I guess you need some level of trust from the people who are paying you, which will be managers in the organisation who want things to be different. Is that right?
Maggie: Absolutely. It's impossible, otherwise.
Mark: Could you talk a bit about the instance where it didn't work? Because, sometimes we get into as consultants, we get into situations that you can't always judge. I think, "Oh gosh, I wish I wasn't here." And how'd you cope with that and what do you do?
Maggie: To me it's about the honesty, when it happens. I do get cross some times that we never talk about things that don't work. We always trumpet what's brilliant, but the learning happens when it doesn't work for everybody involved. That's where I start to pay attention to how do I feel? What's happening? Is my gut clenching? Am I holding my breath and I will start to name how I'm feeling. So, I'll go and I'll own it. So, here's how I'm feeling when I'm with you. This is what's happening for me. How is it for you? And that's not judgemental. There's just something in my body reacting here that's telling, that's an indicator something's not quite right
Mark: And you'll use those sorts of words, will you?
Maggie: I will use those sorts of words, which are a bit weird. There's another wonderful thing. Perceived Weirdness Index.
Mark: God, I love that.
Maggie: I know. I love it too. And it's staying on the right side of that. So I have to be slightly weird to help the organisation change but if I'm too weird, they'll beat me out of the system.
Mark: Oh, gosh. I've got a big piece of paper here, Maggie. I'm writing down notes to self.
Maggie: Hanafin is the guy's name has come up with that, but it's just transformed my world. It's okay to be weird. Just not too weird.
Mark: Oh, well, that's what it is. Maybe I've been over-weirding.
Maggie: But that's learning the boundary, isn't it? And so, it's learning the language as organisation. What words do they use? What are they willing to tolerate? And it's just starting gently and then testing those boundaries. When it hasn't worked, people just will not meet me anywhere near. They won't tolerate any of my weirdness. I have to meet them in their organisation as they are, and that is a big alarm that they don't want to change.
Mark: Typically, what happens? Do things break down and you kind of have to withdraw or?
Maggie: It's mixed. Sometimes you can have dialogue and work your way through it and if there's enough resilience and honesty to say, "Actually I want this change more than I want to stay the same," rewards can get difficult because people are rewarded often staying the same. Either we can work our way through it and then often the relationship is so much stronger because we've been through that and tested our boundaries and learned together how to work and other times it's the honest conversation with, "You're asking me to do this change. This is actually what's happening. These are the behaviours. Here's how it's impacting me. I think you're wasting your money, shall we call it a day?"
Mark: So this is you talking to the manager who hired you?
20 minutes
Maggie: The hiring person. Yeah. A tough conversation and it's also calling out here's the work we have done, here's what we know now, so we've done a unit of work. We have more awareness than when I started, but maybe now's not the right time. Maybe needs to do some other work first or maybe I'm not the right consultant for this, it can be me and my style, my approach.
Mark: Because we're part of it aren't we?
Maggie: Absolutely.
Mark: As you're saying and when there's no trust and people are not prepared to talk. They've obviously been cattle prodded into the room and Maggie starts to feel uncomfortable or however you label your feelings and you express them. Typically, how might people in the room respond?
Maggie: Quite often there's a sense of relief that somebody finally naming it. There's another thing in Gestalt about parallel processes, what I'm feeling is likely what other people are feeling in the room but can't name. I go first and that's what I say to people. "I'm going first, this is how I feel. It may be just me, in which case, let me know." But it may be that other people are feeling this in the room and not able to express it right now. So, often there's a sense of relief, the ability, so, "It's okay to talk about this stuff," but generally I've primed the most senior person in the room that I'm going to do this and where possible they are also supporting it and they will also chip in and say how they are feeling. So, I'll try not to be the only person in the room who's willing to bear all, so to speak.
Mark: So, you prepare them and just warn them that this is going to happen and maybe give them a bit of time to respond themselves.
Maggie: Yeah, absolutely. I never just dump this on some people I will have probably done one to ones or one on twos to explain, "Here's my approach, here's how I work, this is what is likely to happen. How okay are you with that? Do I need to dial it down a bit or can I go wild and wacky?" Where is that comfortable edge? Can we experiment in the moment? So there's an awful lot of testing as we go through with one-on-ones and then the big group and what people say is okay one on one often changes when they're in a big group.
Mark: You said experiment in the moment. Can you say more about what that is?
Maggie: It can be something as silly as, "Actually I'm feeling quite tense and uptight right now. Maybe let's just get up and walk around" or “let's actually not speak right now”. Let's talk by writing down. Let's quit the talking and let's write down or let me introduce the talking stick. So, I have various different approaches, I'm sure the same as you, gathered over the years. All of those change processes that I've learned over the years all have something good in them. So, I'll pull one of those things out and let's try this now. Let's try that now. Maybe need to do a pre-mortem. So what's going to guarantee failure? So we need to do something light or we need to do something or take the focus more microscopic?
Mark: But the experiment in the moment thing is, it's about having a bag of tools and then choosing the right one for that moment. It's not about having a plan about how this session day or whatever it is works.
Maggie: That's right. It's emergence, Mark. Absolutely right. It's emergent.
Mark: I'm so loving this, Maggie, fantastic.
Maggie: To me, that's why ... to do this work, it's a craft. So much as… a carpenter has a bag of tools that they've had an apprenticeship of lots of years of how to do things. I think to be able to do change in complex systems, it's a craft and you need all of those tools and to understand all of the different theories and models and have them at your disposal, so they're available depending on the client and the situation, but it's a craft. It's not a one, two, three, four, which you follow religiously.
Mark: And if you have a one, two, three, four, it's almost certainly going to get in the way and then stop things and changing.
Maggie: Yeah. And sometimes, it's a good beginning because it gives people a sense of safety. So there are times it's okay to bring it out.
Mark: We talked about Kurt Lewin. We talked about Gestalt. We've talked about emergent. Is there anything else that you think we just absolutely, definitely should cover while we're talking about complex systems?
Maggie: So I think the one that's bugging me is how do we deal with burnout? In complex systems, especially when it's-
Mark: Burnout of individuals, you mean?
Maggie: Yeah. Because the cycle of change can be so fast. How do we get to that? In agile, how do we make the pause long enough to really know what's changed? Where are we now? What do we do now to get any satisfaction? I just think people and leaders are just getting burnt out with the pace of change and the complexity and the potential scale of it.
Mark: So where does this come from? Is it sort of the result of dissonance or what?
25 Minutes
Maggie: To me, it's the disassociation with the rest of the world and even our own bodies. Are we drinking? Are we eating? Are we resting? Are we sleeping? Are we putting our phones down?
Mark: And presumably everything else that's going on in our world because it isn't just work.
Maggie: That's right. It's just that pace. And how do we take the time to step back and look after ourselves? We're not immortal. We do have to look after ourselves and we do have to slow down. We can't do everything. And so many organisations and people I coach right now are just trying to live in chaos rather than on that creative edge. You can just see people, they're just at their wits' end. I just see too much of it. I don't know whether that's right for this conversation, but it's one of the things with complexity and trying to wrestle this ugly octopus all at the same time.
Mark: So, but by definition, no one, if we're in a genuinely complex situation, you can't get your head around it. So what I'm thinking is that we're pre-wired to take a clock-type approach by which I mean an analytic type approach to gather information, analyse it, make sense of it, and then take some action, make a plan based on that. But a complex system, it doesn't yield to that kind of approach and you need to be much more cat about it. Be more emergent and all the stuff that we've been talking about. So could this burnout originate from being, using my cat/clock language, trying to be too clock in a cat situation?
Maggie: Absolutely.
Mark: Ooh, Maggie, I'm so glad you've said that. That's very affirming.
Maggie: Especially the way that finances work, especially in governments where you have to put in a pitch, guarantee what benefits you're going to deliver, when they're going to deliver, and you have to plan it five years in advance and then you get beaten over the cost cause you didn't meet the plan you set out five years ago. It's not going to happen. But yes, you say we like patterns. Humans are always searching for patterns, which is the clock. But we're cats.
Mark: But, we do see repeating patterns in complex systems. Like the murmuring of the birds. What we absolutely cannot do is predict the track of an individual bird. But we can know that if a whole flock of birds take off together, they will exhibit patterns like this. There must be some comfort there, I suppose.
Maggie: Yeah. I'm not sure the financial people; that's good enough for them, I suppose.
Mark: But particularly people in government are coping with the need to meet the sort of the financial planning round and writing five year business cases and then delivering them and so, how can you help or how can we help? What do we need to do to nudge change in a system that's so bound like that?
Maggie: I guess it's balancing finances against the reality of the outcomes. So once we've done some investigation work, the best thing might be do something totally different than what we had put in the business plan. So, it's having that more fluid, open dialogue to say, "Actually, I know more now. This is the best thing to do to meet the ultimate outcome that we really do want to achieve in five years' time. But I can't follow that rigid plan."
Mark: Is there a way to write outcomes differently?
Maggie: As questions. I prefer them as questions. "We're trying to answer this question."
Mark: Oh, that's interesting. So how does that work in a business case that you are spending 50 million quid on? I'm not sure. Sorry.
Maggie: Well, I'm sure there's many people out there that are doing that. I just think if we're answering a question then what happens in how we answer that question, we don't have to predict up front. What's the most important question to be answered right now for healthcare or tax reform? Then okay, how do we answer that question and then answering that question, hopefully we'll come up with some solutions rather than pre-configure the solution up front.
Mark: Sorry, Maggie. The recycling people have turned up and they're just chucking bottles around outside. So, we can use this as a moment to reflect... Maggie, a lot of this is about trust, then? Where we started?
Maggie: Yes, absolutely. All of work in organisations or one-on-one coaching is all about building a strong enough relationship that the trust is there to change. If we're at all afraid we won't change, we will hold back. So we need to build that trust and that's the relational work and it happens between us and accepting all of the baggage that each of us brings with us in all of the different systems that we're part of. But without trust, nothing's going to change.
30 minutes
Mark: I hear people talking about trust quite a lot. At one level, we realise that it's important, but I'm not sure we really get to grips with what it actually means you have to do differently to create that trust. And for me it's about the sort of conversations that you have been talking about, and this is why I've been excited about talking with you because it just seems to me that the things you've been talking about are the sort of wellspring of change and the thing we absolutely need to focus on doing. I think we've concluded that trust is really very important and if you want change to happen in complex systems, then you need to hire Maggie.
Maggie: That would be fabulous.
Mark: Maggie, thank you very much indeed. So we're done now and just to wind up, if there are things you'd like me to talk about in future episodes, then just let me know if you'd like to appear on The Clock and the Cat yourself, send me the Twitter equivalent of a brown envelope stuffed with low denomination notes and I'll see what can be arranged. Lots more Clock Cat coming. So if you found what you heard useful, please do subscribe. Alternatively Tibbles the podcast cat has now got his own Twitter account and you can follow @ClockandCat. That's “The Clock and the Cat”, without the “the” at the beginning. Tell your friends. Thanks, bye bye.
